Talk:Musical theatre

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Musical Theatre

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Theatre vs Theater - please do not archive

There is a note in the lead of the article which says "See the talk page discussions concerning the spelling of "theatre" in this article.", but it isn't easy to find that discussion. It is now at Talk:Musical_theatre/Archive_1#"Theater"?_Not_"theatre"?. I will sign this without dating it, on the second day of February 2023 (coincidentally, just 12 years since the previous discussion) which I think will mean that it doesn't get automatically archived. (Ah, I see the date is auto-added: I'll try coming back to remove it!)

And for further info: the footnote on Broadway theatre which is quoted is not quite the same now: the current version says:

Although theater is generally the spelling for this common noun in the United States (see American and British English spelling differences), 130 of the 144 extant and extinct Broadway venues use (used) the spelling Theatre as the proper noun in their names (12 others used neither), with many performers and trade groups for live dramatic presentations also using the spelling theatre.

PamD

I accept that virtually all troupes and venues concerned use the “theatre” spelling themselves, but adding "theater" as an admitted rare alternative seems worth doing, at least to benefit those who invariably use the latter when the word is unmodified. So, I've done it. Musicals are, after all, a part (and a conspicuous, profitable one) of theater. To be sure, it’s nothing to get into theatrics about, and I’ve otherwise let the standard stand here. (Composing this note on LibreOffice Writer, I see that the software flags the spelling theatre but not theater.) Mucketymuck (talk) 08:57, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the alternative spelling is unnecessary clutter. It's just an alternate spelling, and a redirect brings people looking for that spelling to this article, so adding it in the text is not helpful. There is also no Wikipedia guideline that suggests it should be done. I have removed it. Please do not re-add it unless there is a WP:CONSENSUS to do so. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative spellings (and names) are commonly given in Wikipedia articles, generally in the leading sentences. Is it fair to let the curious reader think that “musical theatre” is the sole standard spelling, even in the U.S.?

Even the educational arm of so august an American institution as the Kennedy Center uses the alternative spelling (“Musical Theater in America”: https://www.kennedy-center.org/education/resources-for-educators/classroom-resources/media-and-interactives/media/theater/musical-theater-in-america/), as do other theater curricula, such as Yale University’s Department of Music (https://yalemusic.yale.edu/undergraduate/selected-course-offerings/musical-theater), the University of Washington’s College of Arts and Sciences (https://artsci.washington.edu/news/2019-05/surprising-history-musical-theater), the Berklee College of Music’s Boston Conservatory (https://bostonconservatory.berklee.edu/musical-theater), and a youth training program at Chicago’s famed Goodman Theatre (https://www.goodmantheatre.org/engage-learn/for-youth/musical-theatre-intensive/), despite the latter’s spelling of its own name.

Remarkably, I find it used as the main spelling even by the Simple English Wikipedia itself. Clutter? I considered writing “occasionally, musical theater,” an adverb I think it deserves, but settled on “rarely," and wonder if those who here form a consensus on the matter do so a priori.

I have, however, just altered “musical theater” to “musical theatre” on this very page’s subsection The Golden Age, regarding Rogers and Hammerstein’s "Oklahoma!" Mucketymuck (talk) 07:42, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As you know, I don't think it should be added, as I've explained. What do others think? -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with User:Ssilvers and strongly concur with User:Mucketymuck on this one. As Google Ngram Viewer shows, "theater" has been the prevalent usage in the published corpus for American English since about 1972. Although "theatre" has always been the dominant usage in British English, "theater" has become a little more common (probably through publication of articles by American authors) in the British English corpus after 1960. WP has always highlighted different spellings between dialects when they are both prevalent and this article should be no different. --Coolcaesar (talk) 13:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure our readers need the explanation that "musical theatre" is the same thing as "musical theater": let's complement them with the wherewithal to realise that such a miniscule spelling difference means the same thing. (The Google results bear no relevance to this discussion, and as an aside, I have never ever seen 'theater' spelled as such in British English: if it's output by American authors, it's output that is not using British English - that spelling is never used in BrEng). WP highlights different terms where genuine confusion may occur (pavement v sidewalk; trunk v boot, etc) not for very minor spelling differences - the relevant comments on glassing is at MOS:COMMONALITY, which doesn't say to highlight minor spelling differences - and rightly too: we do not say in Social organization "In sociology, a social organization (or social organisation) is...", because our readers have enough nous about them to realise spellings differ around the world. - SchroCat (talk) 10:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Ssilvers and SchroCat above; leave it as it is for simplicity Jack1956 (talk) 10:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image caption

@Ssilvers: Why is it wrong? GOLDIEM J (talk) 22:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because The Black Crook is *not* considered "the first successful musical theatre production", not even in the U.S. It was certainly very successful, but there had been other successful productions before it. In addition, it is better not to include editorial content about what is shown in the caption -- just describe the image, keep the caption concise, and add the substantive info about what is shown in the image to the narrative information in the article, citing the necessary sources. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]